EO3 - Greg Squires: Business as Mission

Greg Squires, CEO of The Parable Group, talks about his journey through business and how he tries to find the intersection of business and mission. We talk about how the path to our calling is often a meandering path versus a straight one, and Greg shares 6 "P's" that have helped him make big decisions in his life. 

TRANSCRIPTION:

TRAVIS 0:00 Hey everyone. Thanks for joining on this episode we're going to talk with my buddy Greg Squires, who is the CEO of the parable group in San Luis Obispo. I know, I know, I just started this podcast and I'm already breaking my rule of not having CEOs on but the point of that rule was not having people on that you and I can't relate to, and I have no doubt that you will be able to relate to Greg. We're going to talk about his career in business, and how he had signposts along the way that helped him to understand his calling and what he was supposed to do next. We're also going to talk to Greg about his six P's that I think you'll actually find very helpful as a lens by which we can make decisions about our life. And most importantly, Greg is going to talk to us about how he tries to find the intersection between business and mission and some practical advice on how you might do the same enjoy.

TRAVIS 1:24 So the I guess one thing that I was noticing when I was reading up on you, obviously, you've been friends for a long time, so I didn't need to do much, but I don't know that I really realized that you're in business now. But you went to Cal Poly and studied industrial engineering. So was that the plan originally?

GREG 1:48 Yeah, so I originally was a materials engineer major, and I that lasted a quarter. And then I realized there's way more chemistry in that course track. So I found The industrial engineer have the best blend of business and engineering. And so once I realized that I was able to be in the engineering school, but with business and some technological and management focus, so, really enjoyed that coursework. And you know, any, anyone that is both technologically minded and is doesn't mind interacting with humans? It's a great, a great major, which you can't say about every engineering type.

TRAVIS No, you can't. So at Cal Poly, you have to declare a major. So did you apply for that major with a career in mind? Or were you like, was the career going to be in business? How are you thinking about all that?

GREG 2:42 Yeah, funny you asked. I did a project in physics class, junior year of high school, studying golf balls and golf clubs. And so that made me think, you know, it'd be really fun to be in the business of figuring out how to make things fly farther and straighter. So that, you know, I had a dream of a job at Callaway or something thing. Yeah. But, you know, I think I also learned that if you get into the engineering school, you know, you can hop between engineering easier than moving from one college to another. So, that worked out that I was admitted to the engineering school and then gave me a path for another thing, but I mean, as, as we'll talk about, with what's it like to discover your calling and passion? You know, I think it's much like a meandering path with, you know, one marker to the next, as opposed to really having this long arc and understanding where that's going in the long run. I think that's a lot of how God guides us in our life. He doesn't give us the long term view, but he does help us with the small steps and then as we look back over time, we realized that, you know, there was some design to that and one thing, you know, leads to another and that was true of my major in learning about me and being a people person and also you know, technologically, you know, interested in Also appreciating business and business models. It naturally led through a coursework. And I guess the other way that industrial engineering led toward you know, my first job was industrial engineering is a lot about optimization of systems and processes. So a lot of ease end up in production, manufacturing environments, figuring out how to make, you know, supply chains more efficient. I ended up applying that in digital marketing, and learning how to tune dials of Google AdWords and Facebook marketplace, as opposed to tuning dials of, you know, supply chains in production environments, so but it's very similar. There's inputs and outputs, and you try to maximize the throughput. So that's one way that I translated a coursework to, to one of my first jobs.

TRAVIS 4:52 Yeah, so Okay, so you go to school for engineering, but what was that the plan even? I mean, you mentioned that in the golf And all that kind of stuff in high school, but what was what was growing up like and what were your interests? What was home life like, like, talk to me a little bit about growing up your parents and any spiritual influences there and all that?

GREG 5:10 Sure. Yeah. So I have two brothers, an older and a younger so I'm a middle of three. And, you know, I had a faith based foundation where I grew up going to church and faith was a part of my life from a very early age. And then going to college, studying engineering throughout my entire college time I was as many 20 somethings asking what should I do with my life? And I guess part of my story is when I was 18, I had melanoma is a cancer on my back. So I had treatment and ended up not having much more beyond that. But it was a very shocking thing for an 18 year old to have cancer and wonder, you know, what does this mean? And, you know, it may be my life, maybe I'm not as invincible as I think as a teenager, you know, you don't think about death as a young person. But it really rattled me in a way to help me transition into college with, I think, just more awareness of what mattered in life. And then I think that helped with some decisions, while in college with being engaged in faith being engaged in ministry, and had a great experience through college with involvement in crew and that sort of thing. But it was through that discovery process where I was learning about myself asking the question, what should I do with my life? And then how does faith intersect with that? And that's a lot of, you know, what the last 20 years for me has been is how does faith intersect with business? It's been a question I, I asked daily and you know, have has really guided my career trajectory. And so, one of the books that really influenced that process for me was a book called Great Commission companies that I read in 2002. And it has a lot of great things in it. And there have been a lot of books written in the past 20 years that have expanded upon that, but it was a pretty foundational book at the time. And it just talks about three models for business and mission integration. And it really guided a lot of the way that I thought about Should I go into ministry or not? And so the three things it outlines his business in mission and so you know, are you in missions and doing business and I'll do think of that as tent making and I've seen you know, Paul, the apostle with a tentmaker. And we got to understand that within the Christian church, business for mission is a lot of how business leaders think in that okay, I'm doing business but you know it The purpose of the business is for the mission, meaning let's earn some money and give it away to charities, which is also a good use of business and generating value. But finding ways for business to be as mission meaning the purpose of the business is missionary. And that the integrated in a way with which to as you do more business you have greater impact on the community, the customers you serve. And you know, in a way it can be true of every business. But you know, from a faith based perspective, you know, the business can really have an intent to serve its customers. And then it's beyond that it's communities, or its constituents in such a way that it brings human flourishing through the growth or extension or expansion of the business. And so, you know, I was and continue to look for ways for those two things to be as tightly woven together as possible. And I began with that question and in 2002, reading that book going, Okay, how will business and mission be intersected? Unknown Speaker 8:49 And how will my faith influence and affect my work? And so, you know, I'm by no means I'm an expert, but I have spent a lot of time thinking about that. I've read a lot of the books and I really Just enjoy that topic because it's, you know, what I think is most special about it is I really think work can be at the core of our calling in life. Obviously there is more to work in then you know, in our life and then just work but it is a big part of how we spend our time. And I think a lot of people wonder, you know, how do I do something that's meaningful, I'm gonna, you know, 40 or more hours a week, I don't just want to be punching a clock and I think of the the younger generations, my generation and younger, you know, are increasingly wanting meaning in work and not just, you know, punching a clock. Yeah. And so, you know, I think that's our means to flourishing in life. One of the key parts is vocational satisfaction, enjoying work, enjoying the people that you work with, enjoying the type of work that you do, and there will be thorns and thistles and challenges and that's, that's part of it. The way that work is from the way that things went in the garden with Adam and Eve. But now we have an opportunity to bring about flourishing, and bring about God's redemptive story into the here and now with the way that we do our work and the way we interact with others.

TRAVIS 10:19 So tell me about your first job then out of college in business. You've worked for companies who weren't faith based and companies who are so in your first job, how did you yourself try to find that intersection? And kind of Where did you get it right and where did you get it wrong?

GREG 10:42 Well, right after college, I spent two years with cru Campus Crusade and one year was in East Asia and one year was at Cal Poly at my alma mater. And those were two years of kind of extending the college experience in a way while having a paid job that was ministry focused and I learned a lot, learned a lot about how to work in teams I learned about about leadership. It was a great training environment. I also learned about what discipleship looks like both being a disciple and being a disciple Euler raising and training, those that were, you know, a few years behind me and still in school. And so I then after two years of that it was sort of a fork in the road. Do I continue in ministry? Or do I, you know, get another job out? That's not a ministry focus job. And so I thought, well, I'll just dabble and try something else. So I got a job at a tech company in San Luis Obispo. And then I ended up being there. 10 years.

TRAVIS Is it worth it that way? I don't want to say flippant. That's not how it was for you. But did you was it like just that? I don't know. It's not that easy of a decision. I'm just gonna try something else or didn't really have to wrestle with it.

GREG 11:56 Yeah, I did wrestle a lot. I mean it now that it's 15 years ago, it feels like the process was quick. But it was there was a lot of churning and a lot of prayer and I had been married the year prior. So it was with my wife really assessing like, what do we want to do? And what do we want our life to be about? And I think what I realized at the time is if I really felt business and mission could be integrated in some way, and I have these lenses for business in mission, maybe I'll be a missionary and create a business or Business as Mission, maybe I'll go be in business and you know, create value to support ministries, or I'll find a way to tie them together at some point. I figured if I'd had some time in mission, what would it look like to be in business and then maybe I'd find the intersection of the two so, you know, in a way that is kind of how it did work out, as well share more, but it was it was very much a challenging process, but then really, it just led to Well, I need to make a step I need to get a job. I need to learn some skills I need to get in the marketplace. And you have to start somewhere. And fortunately, it was a job in a growing company that even through the recession of oh eight, nine and 10 had some opportunities to grow there and have some places to learn and, and do ministry. So I can talk about that.

TRAVIS 13:16 And how was Carrie? Like, how is your wife feeling about this work? At that point where you had a decision to make where you guys very well aligned? Or did you find that you were on two separate pages and had to sort of figure out a way to move forward together? What were her big questions throughout that time?

GREG 13:32 Yeah, yeah, there was a lot that we were working through together. I'd say in many ways we were aligned. You know, there's a strategic planning process that we learned in crew that we would do together for our family and our marriage. And it basically, where are you now? Where do you want to be and how do you get there? I mean, it's, it's kind of a simple process in that sense, but just kind of that reverse engineering mindset helped us both and helped us kind of put on paper, our family goals and things related to children in the years to come and, and where we wanted to live and how we wanted our values to be lived out, what are our values? And how do we live those out in our, in our little apartment and in our little community and in our church and how we're serving our church and serving in ministry and doing work. So I'd say more aligned. I do recall a time where we had an opportunity to go to Dallas and check out this company that was a at the time of Business as Mission, you know, and we went we visited and it was a, you know, it clear that that was not the place we wanted to be. But we did do that together. And we visited together and we you know, toured the place together and just decided, does this seem like a place you want to be because it needs to be an us thing that we really both are? felt called to?

TRAVIS 14:53 Yeah, yeah. So you make the decision to move into business and then where do you go to work?

GREG 14:58 Yeah, so I worked at Tech comm called Shopatron for almost 10 years in San Luis Obispo. And yeah, I learned so much in that time. I think over the 10 years, I ended up working for almost 10 bosses. And it was not because those people left it was because the company was changing and growing. And my role was shifting. And so I felt so fortunate to learn from so many different types of leaders. And so it was a very formative time. It was, you know, when in your 20s, you just you're learning so much. That's true in college. And then I think the later 20s you just soak up so much information and you're learning how business works and how relationships work and you're kind of finding your own identity. So it was a very formative discovery process and the workplace helped that. As I learned to deal with relationships, those, even those that were hard relationships are strained relationships, competitive relationships, you know, finding ways to To Unknown Speaker 16:01 be a light in that kind of environment, so So I learned a ton Unknown Speaker 16:05 about is it much different? Having gone from ministry into business? Was that working environment much different? Unknown Speaker 16:13 I'd say is in some ways, yes. In some ways? No, I think from in the way that crew operated, you know that it was a natural transition in terms of being in meetings, making decisions. You know, obviously, if it's not a faith based organization, you don't have as much prayer guiding your decisions as a group. But one way that I did see that there was a lot of similarities was in the way that you manage and lead people. And so what I learned with crew and in ministry about how to design a plan for a person like a growth plan that was holistic in nature, thinking about spiritual and relational and vocational plans that informed a lot of of how I lead people as I took on management roles in the company, and I pick up carry that. With me. It's thinking about management as discipleship, you know, and it's disciple making and training and investing and caring for the individual, the whole individual that's guided a lot of how I think about leading a company now is how do I create an environment where I think about flourishing of the whole person. And there's a lot there. And as I did that, in a, in a company where I was not the leader of it, but I was one that was a manager within it. I found that there were times where I the approach I wanted to take with an employee, as a manager of them wanted to invest in them or care for them. I didn't receive that, but I was trying to give that and and there were some challenges in that. That really stretched me But I think God used it to grow me and teach me a lot of things. Unknown Speaker 18:04 Yeah, yeah, I, I know, you know that I worked in business as well for like 10 years and we kind of flip flopped, I started in business, and now I'm in ministry and you started in ministry went to business. So one of the things I, I found when I was in business, that you're probably you probably experiences, I was wrestling with the same kinds of questions like, how does my faith and this career intersect? And I think we tend to just make it so much of a bigger issue than I think it needs to be in terms of what we need to actually do. That we almost get paralyzed and do nothing. And then you know, you're in this situation all of a sudden, where your coworkers are surprised to hear that you're a Christian and all those kinds of things. So I'm wondering like, what what were the small things because there's so many people listening who are in business, maybe leading teams, maybe not, but what are just some little things that you did and you've learned along the way that anyone in business could implement to help those two things. intersect? Unknown Speaker 19:02 Yeah, man, I wish there were a guidebook for this or, you know, there's the short answer. But, you know, it's it's complex. Unknown Speaker 19:13 But as I think back on what it was like to do that, the things that I really guided me, or excellence and passion. And so, you know, I've studied Daniel and Joseph and continue to those are stories that are just amazing examples of God's favor on some young men in some tough environments. And what you see with those guys were excellence in that they were committed to doing great work and in passion in that they were driven to do it well and do it with all their energy. And I think that's, as we talked about, what's it like to find your calling, you know, doing work that you love, will then create work. That's excellent. So, I think that's a reason why it matters to find something you love is because it then enables you to work with excellence, which then enables you to, I'd say, in a way stand out. And I would say that was my approach was do work excellently, and do work with high character and integrity. And do it with humility, in relationships, and with generous love. Like just that's the way of Jesus and and that is recognized as different in the marketplace. And but to go with that I was vocal in a way of people knew that I was a Christian. And I communicated that I had a small Bible study that happened on Wednesdays at lunch and invited those that were of faith and people knew that that was happening. I would invite people to to church from time to time, those that did work for me, I was able to be more specific and about the way that I think about life and encourage them in particular ways. Tell them I'm praying for them. You know, those, but you, you know that alone with either poor performance or lack of passion, you know, there's a dissonance there. So, I think it's both I think it's both being excellent working with passion. And to the degree that, you know, we're not perfect people, right, we mess up and we say things we wish we didn't and yeah, you know, I think back What did I not do? Well, you know, I was probably more competitive than I should have been, right. So there's all kinds of ways that I didn't live as Christ would have lived. But that was my marker as my goal like, how do I live as Christ and bring humility into this situation or, you know, apologize to people when things didn't go as I thought they would and say correctly sale that is observed to be different than the norm. So those are a few things that I learned and ways that I would integrate faith. And then I think, you know, living with these examples of Joseph and Daniel with excellence and passion, I think that plays a role too. Yeah.

TRAVIS 22:21 Yeah, that's great. Would you say then, when you were working at Shopatron, because we use it, we throw the word calling around? Yeah, pretty frequently, and it can be an intimidating word. Would you have said that you were walking in your calling at that point? And what how would you have defined that?

GREG 22:39 I wouldn't then but I would now, which is kind of ironic. So at the time, I felt, you know, I'm getting business experience because at some point I'll be doing a more integrated business and mission. But now as things have played out, and I'm now in the role at the parable, Group which is a business of multiple. It's a network of retailers and vendors and consumers, which now looking back on spending 10 years at shop Itron working with retailers and vendors and consumers. It's like God had put me there for a decade to learn what it's like to lead a kind of multifaceted multi party network like business that where you add value to all parties. And so now sitting in this role to lead an organization like that, I feel so much more prepared to do that. Hadn't having not had that, that experience. So of course, that was where I was supposed to be. And it now becomes more clear, so. So it's ironic, but yes, I believe it was. Yeah, a calling. Yeah.

TRAVIS 24:00 Did you over your 10 years at Shopatron? Were you? Were you pretty aggressive in terms of how you were thinking about your career path? And what it might lead to? Or did you find you were just kind of like going with the flow? I mean, you sort of mentioned this, like balance between, like, you know, performance and favor, and which is it? And I think the answer is yes, you know, all of that kind of works together. But how are you thinking about your career at that time?

GREG 24:27 Yeah, well, I was very fortunate to be in a growing company, where over 10 years, we went from 30 to 150 people which as the company grew, so grew the management and the roles for leadership of strategic things. And, you know, God just had his favor on me to be in those new roles as they popped up. So I started as an individual contributor, and then we were going to add to the team, so I was a manager of the team and then I needed someone to take on leadership of that team. As I moved into a director role of a new thing, and then the was on the executive team, in the later years as the company was led to get acquired, and I mean, I would say I am a driven person, I am an achiever. I've learned about you through assessments and personality. I'm an enneagram. Three, I'm a performer, I, you know, up into the right, growth mindset, like that's a that's how I'm wired. And so I think, yes, those had to be earned. But they also had to be sought in a way but they also had to be given. And so that's an interesting paradox that I think those those work hand in hand and, you know, if they're sought, but not given, it's not a good fit. And they're sometimes given and not sought, but rarely. Yeah. So you know, again, back to the examples of Daniel and Joseph you know, those guys Weren't seeking to take on the roles that they did. directly. They just were in a place of favor with a place of humility and willingness. But yet when the time came, they stepped into those. And and God had prepared them. And then they began to shoulder the challenge of what it meant to lead and to serve alongside kings. Unknown Speaker 26:24 Yeah, and it's, I mean, as we're getting older, too, it's like, you have the benefit of hindsight. And I wish I had that in my earlier years. Because, you know, like you you just, you cannot imagine how God is using you where you currently are for the next thing or how he used these previous experiences to put you where you are. It's you. It's just incredible how God works all that out. So you have you sent me these six phrases that I think are so great about the kind of work that you want for yourself and for others. I don't know. Do you have those in front of you? And could you just read them out and tell me how these people came to be, Unknown Speaker 27:00 yeah, sure. Well, certainly through the trip to Dallas in 2007. In the show, what kind of job do I want while I'm at Shopatron Should I leave or stay, and then when it was time to leave what's next and then when it was time to move into the role of parallel group did did this fit in so I, they were five peas, and then they added one, so I call them six peas. And then just recently, as I've clarified kind of my life mission statement, I've added some modifying phrases so so the six peas, I can go through them our purpose, people, position, pace, place and pay. And I do think of them in that order. But that was the grid that I looked through at each stage to stay or go or take this, you know, new opportunity and so purpose. You know, it's both from an organizational and a role. perspective, you know, does this does this organization have Kingdom purpose? Or can I find the kingdom purpose in the role as it relates to people? Am I going to? Well, I enjoy who I work with respect the person I work for. And you know, it's about thriving people. So Will I be able to thrive and I have in my working with people that are thriving, because I think that's there's a, there's a fulfillment in work when you are with people that love what they do. position, I call it a meaningful position. So as I've grown in organizations and had the opportunity to lead from within organizations, I just realized that different roles have different meaning and different influence. And I think I've also, you know, learned the the difference between you kind of ownership control and leadership influence. So as I've been involved variety of different organizations and now now lead one and own one, it is very different to be the owner than it is to be a leader in one. And so where God has me today is to be an owner position. But having spent a lot of years in, in leadership position it is a meaningful role to work with those that have the if the control, if you will, the chief that has the full ownership or the board that has the full ownership. But it's, I think what I was really seeking and hoping for and longing for was meaning and influence to be able to shape the trajectory of an organization. And and found that, you know, the role I'm in now is one where you have you know, the most influence and direct control. Unknown Speaker 29:52 pace is one, so I learned a lot about pace at Shopatron and I know that in You have to Travis. In this. We've talked about what it means to work hard. And I did work hard and there were lots of nights and weekends where I'd be, you know, pushing it. But I think I had to make some decisions while at shop Itron and decide where I drew the line to say, I can work no more. And if this job requires me to do this volume of work, it's not the job for me. And so I had to be more vigilant about turning turning it off in the evening or getting home for dinner with to be with the kids or limiting travel or, you know, not working every Sunday from 4pm to 9pm. You know, and so I call that a sacred pace. And there's a book sacred pace that I read last year that I really enjoyed and would recommend it. It's about decision making a God's pace, but I think it also just informs at what pace the do I work and how, how much must I be working and driving and striving because of the way God's wired me, I have a high investment, high drive, but that needs to be reined in for the other regions and domains of life, which is it's kind of its own topic in itself, but sacred pace, and then just quickly place. Certainly living in San Luis Obispo and considering living elsewhere or moving elsewhere, that was a big part of our decision process in 2007, and in the last five years, but it's also asking where can me and my family flourish. So I want to be part of a flourishing place with which is both the company environment and the community environment. And then lastly, pay rewarding pay. And so how does this job provide for my family? It's part of the equation as it is for every job and every assessment. But, you know, I think it's important that it's sort of bottom on the list because There are many jobs that pay well that don't allow for the pace that I would want for my life. And then, you know, God's gonna provide through through the job. And I firmly believe that especially if you're in the right thing, so so that's kind of how I think about those things and had been helpful with them a few that I've shared it with over the years.

TRAVIS 32:22 I love it. Yeah, it kind of reminds me a little bit about there's this formula ish called the Wesleyan quadrilateral which looks at you know, scripture, tradition, reason and experience and it's just lenses by which you can see like, has gone down done this in the past does in Scripture, meet with tradition, all those kinds of things. And so I love those peas as another lens by which you can make decisions for your life so so you, you get this opportunity then next to, to purchase the parable group. And one of the things that I wrote about in the book was just this idea of risk and not doing something just flippantly but, but really like, I defined it as really being obedient to God in the face of opposition, even when the opposition is just between your own ears, and you're trying to talk yourself out of it, it couldn't possibly be God. So I imagine many people, whether they're in business or not, are dealing with these types of opportunities and risks. So talk to us about how that came to be how you dealt with and manage the risk and and kind of where you're at now.

GREG 33:29 Yeah. very relevant to some stuff that I thought through through the process of deciding do I move forward with this opportunity to invest in the parallel group and take on ownership and leadership of a 30 year company, led by you know, someone was that was the end of their years looking for a new leader. And so, the thing I felt God really encouraged me through the time to operate out of faith, not fear, because fear is, you know, the opposite Have risk in a way. And so it very much felt like a risk. I would say that taking this step in to lead this organization and to invest in it was the biggest risk that I've ever taken, but it's also the biggest gift I've ever been given. So in a way, it was this kind of two sided package that came, you know, and I think that's probably true of risks that are taken, that even if it goes poorly or badly, I think even still, it can be one of the best gifts that you're given. Failure is often one of the best gifts we can get because we learned so much more from those than from the winds. And, you know, I'm thinking about that now as we look forward and innovate and create, you know, really trying to allow me and my team to have a measure of failure. In that you try new things and fail. So I'm still thinking about risk, but now in a different way than I was a couple of years ago in thinking about taking on this, this new responsibility. So, I mean, it became very clear that this was the right thing for me to pursue through prayer and lots of counsel and time with Carrie. And I mean, it just, there were a lot of signs pointing to go. And you know, it, I felt like God led me through Abraham Isaac moment where I felt like I was taking what assets we had, and putting them on an altar and saying, if all of these just blew up in smoke, what's the worst thing that could happen? And it was a freedom in saying, well, they were the giver, God's gift to me anyway, I'm just a steward. And so that reduced the risk in a way to just kind of be free to say, Well, my life's in God's hands and he'll take care of us. And what's the worst thing that can happen? Well, maybe things all crumble, and then I just go get another job or something. But it was a very healthy process that I feel like God taught me a lot through. And I had to wrestle a lot through risk and fear.

TRAVIS Yeah, that's great. So, um, I think, you know, those, those moments can be really pivotal in our lives. And they can I think we can often just miss them because we're not like, maybe open to them. But did you feel like how did how did that whole process get initiated? And were you blindsided by it? Or was it something you were looking for? And how did you determine these kind of signposts?

GREG 36:50 Well, throughout 2014 1516, the time that Shaka Tron was wrapping up, I knew that that was Not gonna be a forever thing. Shaka Tron was in the process of being acquired, which then led toward a private equity ownership, which led toward most jobs transitioning out of the area. And so I saw that coming. And then found another opportunity that I worked at for two years as a head of marketing and another software company, which that ended up being a little less than two years and a little shorter than planned because, again, a Texas based private equity company, took over the business and then I, the jobs moved to Texas again. So it was as if I had kind of seen that movie before I kind of saw that happening. So and then I had some time to prepare for what would be next. So that was just about a little over two years ago. And so I'm the prior owner and founder of the parable group was a guy that I'd met seven, eight years ago and we actually met at a global leadership summit at New Life, church. Where is your home now? And yeah, we, you know, we've been asked him to go to lunch. And I had known of him, you know, 20 years ago and I was with crew. And so we just met and we ended up getting together every three to six months, over seven, eight years and connecting having lunch. And he's in many ways a mentor and a friend. And so I got to, you know, met up with him and said, here's what I'm thinking and here's what I'm looking for. I'd love to see business and mission come together. And he said, I'm looking for someone to take this thing forward, maybe we should talk and so it took about four months for us to work out all the details. But I think, you know, part of this one of the signpost with deciding that taking on leadership of an existing company was the right step for me, has a little bit to do with the influence and control. I wouldn't consider myself a high control person, but when I really thought about Business as Mission, like if you want a business to have a very clear missional purpose, like the owner is the one that has to steward that tension. And so I realized if I want to own fun to do that, I have to be an owner, if I want to be an owner, I have to start it or buy it. And if I want to buy it, I have to find something existing or if I want to start it, I have to start from zero, which that felt like a much even bigger risk given having a family and, and what it would mean for me at 38 years old to make that that pivot. So that was one of the inputs was if I want to achieve this Business as Mission outcome, I realized I needed to own the thing, and that was a step that God was providing. And so it just became clear that this was the right thing. So that's what Steve and I both say that former parable owner and founder, he was looking for someone I was looking for something and God brought us together. And, you know, in in His providence it was, it was the right thing for both of us. And we both look back and seeing God's faithfulness in that and God's provision in that God's timing and that and again, hindsight is always 2020. But in the process in sort of that crucible of it, it was a mix of friend input, advisory input prayer, signposts over the years, you know, affirming and confirming that path. And it very much was me transitioning from, you know, a job to a calling, where the, it was like, Okay, yeah, this is the thing I, I believe, you know, God's wired me to do I need to, you know, step into that and press into that. Yeah.